Wikidata talk:WikiProject Astronomy

Welcome to the Astronomy task force

Just a welcome to this new task force and I wish it a long life in the wikidata community. Snipre (talk) 13:23, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much! I hope this task force will reach to aggregate discussions concerning properties of astronomic objects as Chemistry and Molecular Biology task forces. --Paperoastro (talk) 08:50, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I just planted a message on the Astronomy project of en-wiki. We have to advertise this project a little more so the international community knows where to look for astronomy-related topics on Wikidata. Plus we need the multiplication factor of editors checking the Wikidata-items for consistency. Can somebody notify a few other languages? --Tobias1984 (talk) 00:08, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I tried to do a Wikidata-styled logo that we could use on Wikipedia to link to this project. What do you think about it? The link could look like this: --Tobias1984 (talk) 12:40, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Visit the sister-project on Wikidata.

 Support. For me it is a good idea! --Paperoastro (talk) 14:36, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I planted the link on all the other projects. Hopefully some nice people will translate the English text. Even more importantly is that data coordination becomes more global. --Tobias1984 (talk) 16:10, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Asteroids question

Hi! What do you think about this page: 102 Miriam. It's about an asteroid and many properties that don't yet exist are needed but I think it's well construct and can serve as a model for asteroids pages. What do you think? - Sarilho1 (talk) 12:59, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

You made a good job! It is a good idea to use also the properties preceded by and followed by. They will be very useful for Wikipedia templates. I add 102 Miriam as a good example of item. --Paperoastro (talk) 15:45, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

P31 and P60

Instead of using P31, shouldn't we use P60? If so, it's better change in the table. - Sarilho1 (talk) 13:04, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Sarilho1, welcome to astronomy task force! You are right, I made a mistake in compiling the table! I corrected it and add also the "main type (GND)" property. Thank you! --Paperoastro (talk) 15:28, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

P376

Does this property include items on Earth? - Sarilho1 (talk) 19:42, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes the idea is to use this property also for the item on Earth. --Paperoastro (talk) 13:15, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! - Sarilho1 (talk) 10:18, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Distance units

Hello everybody !

I'm a french contributor, and there is a lot of debate, and conflict, on WP:fr about units that shall be used for distance (parsec/ly). I'm rather agnostic on this matter, and I feel that a solution for us may come from Wikidata, and centralization of this debate.

I see that there is already a property defined for distance in Wikidata, in ly. I understand this choice is made for coherence with a template field (dist_ly).

Why not (again I am agnostic), but there are some arguments to have this property in parsec units. Mainly, one can imagine to automaticaly import this property (and others) from astronomical professional databases, in which this information is always in parsec units. By the way, there should be properties also for uncertainty distance margins, which are also in parsec in these databases. A conversion in ly may gives akward numbers, with should be rounded with a loss of precision in respect to the source.

What do you think of this problem ? Best regards --Jean-Christophe BENOIST (talk) 09:43, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Jean-Christophe. Imho I would use parsec instead of ly, because parsec is directly derived from parallax, but this is only my opinion. In Wikidata I would use the measure unit of the source, as you told. Other Wikipedias use more than one unit: English and Italian use both parsec and ly (see for example en:Andromeda Galaxy and it:Galassia di Andromeda) and Spanish one ly and kilometres (see es:Galaxia de Andrómeda). Don't worry concerning the indication of the template here: it is only an example of infobox parameter: in Wikidata there is no restriction to use one measure unit or another. In fact the number datatype will has also the measure unit, allowing conversions:

• with special functions of the number datatype (I hope it will be possible);
• including different values in the property "distance" of items, one for every useful measure unit;
• changing the measure unit in Wikipedia when the value is imported.

If you and other French contributors will want to discuss this topic here, you are welcome! --Paperoastro (talk) 13:19, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Asteroids: bot at work

Hello, please note that I asked for a bot to populate the property discoverer for several thousand asteroids. Legobot is at work now on the basis of User:Ysogo/asteroidi-scopritori. It should complete in a couple of hours. --Ysogo (talk) 20:18, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

You made a very good job! :) --Paperoastro (talk) 13:27, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Papero. Please be informed that I have just asked for a bot to populate "preceded by" and "followed by" for all named asteroids up to asteroid #185641. Since I'm working with a derivation of the database that I use to create articles on it.wiki about asteroids, I was able to manage only named asteroids. I hope in a near future to evolve my tool to also include not-yet-named asteroids that are anyway already present on wikidata. --Ysogo (talk) 20:39, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Redirect all discussion pages of the task force here?

I wonder whether it is not better to put a redirect to this discussion page for the dicussion pages of all the four sections in which the task force is organized, I believe it would help a lot in having an homogenous view. If we do, it now it is quite easy since we only have one other discussion page with few topics discussed so far (and we can cut & paste here). Let me know your opinion. --Ysogo (talk) 21:01, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Chemistry task force uses all the three discussion pages, Molecular Biology task force uses redirects to one page. Also for me it is better one page only: three pages is too much dispersive. --Paperoastro (talk) 22:34, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Let's wait few days to see any other opinion. On Saturday we merge talk pages. --Ysogo (talk) 20:13, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree. --Paperoastro (talk) 07:19, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't see any impediment, so I agree. - Sarilho1 (talk) 10:56, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Done --Ysogo (talk) 08:51, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Asteroid's infobox

In Portuguese Wikipedia, it's used an infobox for asteroids. It is almost the same as the planet infobox. It is here in Wikidata - Q7486740 - and in Portuguese Wikipedia Info/Asteroide. (Note: Predefinição is Portuguese for Template). What should we do in these situations? - Sarilho1 (talk) 16:16, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

English infoboxes is a "point of reference" for proposing new properties. If there is an infobox parameter that hasn't correspondence with a template of English Wikipedia, we can propose a new property or use a qualifier (when they will be implemented) with an existent property. --Paperoastro (talk) 17:46, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

It's almost the same, but in Portuguese there is a parameter for number. I think that it is a copy from English Wikipedia's infobox about planets. I'm not really used to the phase II of Wikidata so I was thinking that all infobox about the same subjet would be merge and store in Wikidata. Now I'm understanding better. - Sarilho1 (talk) 18:03, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

In Wikidata we store and manage informations that every Wikipedias can use for their infoboxes. You must not change Portuguese infoboxes, but use useful (for your Wikipedia) values of Wikidata item to "populate" the parameter of your infoboxes. Informations are centralized in Wikidata, but Wikipedias can decide what of them use. --Paperoastro (talk) 19:22, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! - Sarilho1 (talk) 09:12, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Uncertainty

When I have maintained and created articles about minor planets on svwp, I have tried to not add more exact numbers than the sources can provide.

As an example: 102 Miriam has very nice numbers in the Orbit elements, the "uncertainty" is low. In other objects, those numbers are not that exact, because their orbit isn't studied in detail, or the orbit is affected by larger objects to such extent that a nice looking ellips never is well-established, or the "uncertainty"-is missing in the sources. - I have tried (on svwp) to show the difference between objects with low uncertainty from the objects with larger or missing uncertainty, by writing more decimals and less zeros for 102 Miriam (3.33461926 AU 498,851,940 km), than for 5261 Eureka (1.62 AU 242,000,000 km) in the infobox. I have not added this "uncertainty" directly into the infobox, since I felt that such details, will not be understood by a common reader anyway. But they do understand (at least some of them) the value of "significant figures".

Therefor the number in the "Uncertainty"-column in the source above, would be nice to add next to the orbit-elements, once the orbit-elements are added to the items. I do not know yet how this can be done, but I guess it can be provided by a qualifier. --- Lavallen (block) 18:01, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

We are lucky: developers are developing numeric datatype including a value for "uncertainty" and a measure unit (see here). So we will insert a value with the error in Wikidata and choose, for example, to display in Wikipedia only the value. The error could be used to calculate the number of significant figures to display. --Paperoastro (talk) 11:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Nice! I guess we are free to use this "uncertainty" in the way we like, or not at all. Observe that the "uncertainty" in this source do not give a ±-number, but a standard-deviation. -- Lavallen (block) 11:17, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Good observation! Probably it is better ask to developers. --Paperoastro (talk) 07:50, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

This is one of the areas where I think the data model is rather insufficient, and even wrong in some respect (m:Wikidata/Data model#Numbers describes standard deviation and calls it variance). I think it works as a first iteration, but for any serious use it is partly not specific enough and partly not flexible enough. It has been said that qualifiers should be like a catch all when something can't be stored as a single value, or that you could add more specific properties, but it seems to me like that isn't always possible. Unstable orbits of celestial bodies are a good example, another is statistical analysis where some census bureau gives mean and other gives median for some number, a third could be numbers where there are imposed some limits due to privacy concerns. Jeblad (talk) 22:33, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I think there is mainly four kinds of uncertain orbits here: 1. Not wellstudied. 2. Dynamic, like trojans and other objects who switch orbits, they cannot be described by a smooth elipse. 3. They are affected by the gravity of larger bodies, like Jupiter. 4. Comets who change mass during orbit. -- Lavallen (block) 14:27, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Probably the ideal solution is have various numeric datatype that include different kind of errors. I don't know if this solution is feasible. Qualifiers that describe the type of error of values could be a more simple solution, for now. For the orbits, I have a particular idea: a property that describes the kind of uncertain that Lavallen described above. What do you think? --Paperoastro (talk) 15:32, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good! -- Lavallen (block) 16:43, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

I need to change the data model. A more current version is here: Representing values, and shows that there is an "upper" and "lower" bound, and we do not fix what it exactly means. This would be up to the given community. Sometimes qualifiers might be needed as well. --Denny (talk) 12:23, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Semi-major axis

Is the apsis-property supposed to be used for "Semi-major axis" too? Apiapsis and periapsis is not availible everywere, esp outside the solar system, and for many asteroid-moons. I can accept to use the apsis-property in all cases, with "Semi-major axis" as a qualifier. -- Lavallen (block) 11:26, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

We will use the apsis-property if we have values for it, both if we use it as "property", or if we use it as a "qualifier property". Semi-major axis is a length; apsides is a distance (the major and the minor from the body on the focus of the orbit), but the semi-major axis is on the line of apsides. Your proposal is good, but I'm afraid that it may create confusion with infoboxes of the other Wikipedias. --Paperoastro (talk) 15:49, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm thinking that the space task force can also use some of these for man-made objects. en:Template:Infobox spacecraft and en:Template:Infobox space mission have orbital data - are we using the same words to mean the same thing? Secretlondon (talk) 16:29, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Secretlondon, if there is no opposition, for me is more simple that astronomical objects and spacecrafts uses the same property for orbits. --Paperoastro (talk) 21:14, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

If they are the same thing then it is obvious that we don't need special spacecraft orbit properties.Secretlondon (talk) 21:28, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, of course! --Paperoastro (talk) 21:36, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Constraint violations of property P60 (type of astronomical object)

It is active an automatic check of wrong values of property. In particular, the property P60 (type of astronomical object) is checked for "single value" violation: here there is a list of items where P60 has more than one value. I'd like to discuss:

1. the possibility to have a very small number of exceptions of this violation, e.g. Ceres is both dwarf planet and asteroid.
2. most of exceptions listed are asteroids (see 11668 Balios as example). I propose to remove the value different by Q3863 (asteroid) and use for the "wrong value" the property P361 (part of). An example can be found here. Are you agree? --Paperoastro (talk) 09:53, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

I start a list in this page with the astronomical properties checked by KrBot. I invite everyone to propose/add other properties. --Paperoastro (talk) 10:24, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, trojans and others can use P361 instead, it's a good solution. There are also a group of objects who are both comets and different kinds of minor planets at the same time, but the number is low.

How well-defined is "Asteroid" as a definition? To me "Minor planet" feels much more well-defined. I've never heard anybody name a TNO as a Asteroid, but there are many objects who are both in the inner parts and the outer parts of the solarsystem in their orbits. -- Lavallen (block) 10:46, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

"Minor planet" could be the best solution for "ontology", but I prefer to distinguish between different types of minor planet objects (e.g. natural satellites, asteroids, comets,...), because P60 (type of astronomical objects) can be used by infoboxes of Wikipedia. Concerning TNO and asteroids: you are right. It is better to distinguish both of them. In general, we should open a discussion to decide which item use for P60 property. --Paperoastro (talk) 11:35, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

check P155 vs P156

I believe we can ask for a check for P155 vs P156 (preceeded by, followed by):

• if Qa is P155 of Qb, then Qb must be P156 of Qa.

Papero, how can we ask for such check? It looks you are familiar with this procedure. --Ysogo (talk) 18:00, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Here there are the instructions. ;-) However the symmetric violation check only the case "Qa is Pa of Qb" and "Qb is Pa of Qa" - e.g. the property P26 (spouse) (see here)! I ask here my doubt. --Paperoastro (talk) 20:42, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to Ivan A. Krestinin, the reciprocal constraint between P155 and P156 is now active. :-) --Paperoastro (talk) 13:14, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Great, but it looks like we had a good idea for other task forces. Exceptions include presidents and kings from around the world, books and music LP of different artists, Olympic Games... and so on. Any way to limit it to astronomical objects? Or better, to create separate lists for items relevant to different taskforces?--Ysogo (talk) 16:56, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Probably the solution is to check the existence of property P60 (P60) with another bot (imho using the same bot could be too complicated). --Paperoastro (talk) 18:15, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Hierarchy of the property P60 (P60)

We need to choose which values ​​should have the property P60 (P60), that involves all the astronomical objects. In my sandbox I propose a hierarchy that can be useful to manage infoboxes of Wikipedias. I'd like to discuss:

1. the items involved in this classification;
2. the relationship between them;
3. how to show this ontology (I used a table, but I'm sure that exists a better manner to show it);
4. where to put all (in the discussion page of the property or in a sub-page of the Astronomy task force?).

Please, be bold. ;) --Paperoastro (talk) 14:38, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Bot to scrape Extrasolar Planets Encyclopaedia

I was wondering if anyone would be able to create a bot that would be able to copy the information about planets detected by the Kepler spacecraft from the Extrasolar Planets Encyclopaedia (link) to our list of planets discovered using the Kepler spacecraft. Rather than merely going to the list, it would be ideal if the bot could follow the link for each Kepler planet and get the full information from there, rather than merely looking at the catalog. The information in the EPE about Kepler planet is in turn copied from the Kepler discoveries catalog, which is in the public domain but is unfortunately offline at the moment (requiring us to use the copyrighted EPE. In addition to the basic information, I would like it if our bot were able to calculate surface gravity where possible based on mass/(r^2). Thanks, Wer900 • talk 18:08, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Wer900. Thank you very much for your proposal. We will import certainly the data of the Extrasolar Planets Encyclopaedia with a bot, but it is better to wait for new datatypes: ulr (for references) and quantity. According to the information of this roadmap, in September we will are able to import all the available data from the Encyclopedia. See you! --Paperoastro (talk) 16:40, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Earth (Q2)

Why Earth (Q2) is a term (Q1969448) while Mars (Q111) is a geographical feature (Q618123) using property P107 (P107)? I would change it, but Earth (Q2) has sources so I don't know if I should. - Sarilho1 (talk) 14:58, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

GND classification is performed by the Deutsche National Bibliothek. Following their classification, every astronomical object is geographical feature (Q618123), but they decided to classify Earth (Q2) as term (Q1969448)! I know, it is strange! --Paperoastro (talk) 12:10, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, that was my fear. :) - Sarilho1 (talk) 13:03, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it's both. I added also astronomical object as entity type.--Ysogo (talk) 06:31, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

With the decision to not use and delete P107 (P107), the problem "is solved" ;-).

Property related to Minor planet designation

In Infobox planet there is a space (mp_name) about Minor planet designation (Q817125). For example, for 102 Miriam, these code is 102. I think that such property don't exist, but I think it could be useful. Should it be proposed? - Sarilho1 (talk) 15:12, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Is it the same for you use the property catalog code (P528)? --Paperoastro (talk) 12:12, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I think it is. I didn't know that these property worked for several catalogs. I have just a question about the property in general: Can you put these property (with the qualifier) in an infobox? I don't know how it works so... - Sarilho1 (talk) 13:03, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

I found this draft: it is outdated but the syntax should be valid. We need a qualifier property to distinguish the different catalogs. --Paperoastro (talk) 11:56, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

There is a lot of suggested properties here about catalogs. It's better to refuse before more properties being created. - Sarilho1 (talk) 21:41, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I put my comment there, but the proponent return on the end of August. --Paperoastro (talk) 14:55, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Deletion of P107 (P107) and astronomical objects

We ever marked all astronomical object (Q6999) with the property P107 (P107) => geographical feature (Q618123), but now some people are claiming that these property will be deleted and we should use instance of (P31)/subclass of (P279) instead. So, I would like to ask, I should we mark astronomical object (Q6999) from now on? - Sarilho1 (talk) 14:32, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I have just read the discussions. For now we have P60 (P60) that distinguish astronomical objects from the other items. In the future, probably P60 could be substitute by instance of (P31) with something like the hierarchy that I proposed here that start from astronomical object (Q6999). --Paperoastro (talk) 14:52, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I've forgot the title. I agree with you, I don't like to use instance of (P31) because we can use any item. Maybe we should give priority to that table to, when reached consensus, turn it official. - Sarilho1 (talk) 15:30, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Property "not quite" proposal

Items like USA-243 (Q13392599) should not only list what kind of orbit they're in but what they are orbiting around, for those kinds of orbits where the orbit type does not implicitly link the two.

To that effect, it seems to me that there should be a property "orbits", with the qualifier "orbit type" where it is not immediately obvious what object is being orbited (and, on that note, it seems to me that there are other things that "orbit" besides astronomical objects).

Thoughts? --Izno (talk) 23:26, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Maybe this is a moot question, given parent astronomical body (P397), child astronomical body (P398), companion of (P399)? Mine seems much more elegant either way though, I suppose, because it can be used for more than just astro-objects... --Izno (talk) 23:40, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

The idea to use P397, P398, P399 is natural, and I support it. Of course, we should be carefully with constraints that are set for astronomical objects.

I take this discussion to speak about my doubt concerning P397 and P398. When I proposed these properties I did not know part of (P361). Probably, as suggested by some people, the good names for P397 and P398 could be "orbiting" and "orbited by" and for the other use (i.e. stars in clusters, galaxies in groups...) we could use P361. What do you think? --Paperoastro (talk) 12:37, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Are there any edge cases where "companion of" is not covered by either "part of" or by "orbits/astronomical body"?

As for using "orbits" instead of "astronomical body", that would change the relation of the Solar System to the Milky Way to be part of, where the Solar System is orbiting the Milky Way core, correct? (Just as an example.) Is that okay?

As for the previous discussion, I think either "orbits" or "parent body" both face the issue of "which is the actual thing that is the parent body / being orbited"? But yes, I would agree that we could do what you suggest.

On a last note unrelated to previous comments, I don't see a need for the reciprocal property of "orbited by", per the general feeling that we should build the database up rather than down. --Izno (talk) 16:12, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. All your example are correct. Probably we can leave all as is at now: it is more simple. Concerning the two reciprocal properties you have right: "child body" is redundant and it could be difficult to manage it for high number of "child objects". When we will have queries probably it will became redundant. --Paperoastro (talk) 20:57, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Organization of the list of properties

When I created the Astronomy task force, I thought it was a good idea to group properties as they are organized now, but they are difficult to manage. What do you think of the organization of Physics task force? --Paperoastro (talk) 16:07, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

I update the table with the list of all properties involved in astronomical objects and also the table with the properties used for the "infobox planet". My idea is to update in the same manner the other templates of astronomical objects. --Paperoastro (talk) 22:55, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Request of deletion of the property P60 (P60)

Please, see the discussion for the deletion of the property P60 (P60). --Paperoastro (talk) 16:35, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

The PfD of P60 (P60) is closed and the property will be deleted. Before to delete it we need:

1. warn Russian Wikipedia (Q206855) and wait for the modification of the template ru:Шаблон:Звезда;
   • Russian Wikipedia warned
2. move all the statements of P60 to instance of (P31) (see this bot request);
   •  Done by SamoaBot --Paperoastro (talk) 15:35, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
   • modification by hand the remain statements.  Done. --Paperoastro (talk) 16:34, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
3. remove the constraint Item: items with this property should also have type of astronomical object from the properties site of astronomical discovery (P65), galaxy morphological type (P223), spectral class (P215), astronomic symbol image (P367), located on astronomical body (P376),parent astronomical body (P397), child astronomical body (P398), companion of (P399), provisional designation (P490), orbit diagram (P491), constellation (P59), catalog code (P528), minor planet group (P196), JPL Small-Body Database SPK-ID (P716), asteroid spectral type (P720), asteroid family (P744), type of variable star (P881), asteroid taxonomy (P1016), discovery method (P1046), redshift (P1090), apparent magnitude (P1215), astronomical filter (P1227).  Done --Paperoastro (talk) 20:05, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

--Paperoastro (talk) 12:24, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

The property can be deleted. --Paperoastro (talk) 16:34, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

A double ontology for astronomical objects

After a first discussion, I make a double proposal to organize astronomical objects: a "classical" ontology using instance of (P31) and subclass of (P279) and one using part of (P361) (the last suggested by Filceolaire and Sarilho1).

The ontologies, especially the second, are not complete. At now the situation is:

• part of;
• class and subclass.

I ask the community suggestions to complete the ontologies and how manage them from modification without discussion.

Please, be bold if someone want to modify the two trees below.

--Paperoastro (talk) 23:29, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Ontology with part of (P361)

• Universe (Q1)
  • supercluster (Q27521)
    • galaxy cluster (Q204107)
      • quasar (Q83373)
      • intergalactic star (Q2731563)
      • galaxy (Q318)
        • interstellar cloud (Q1054444)
        • star cluster (Q168845)
        • substellar object (Q3132741)
        • star system (Q595871)
          • star (Q523)
          • binary star (Q50053)
          • triple star system (Q2088753)
          • multiple star (Q878367)
          • planetary system (Q206717)
            • planet (Q634)
              • natural satellite (Q2537)
            • comet (Q3559)
            • minor planet (Q1022867)

Ontology with subclass of (P279)

All the items need P31 -> Q6999?

No, they are subclass of astronomical obects, we need an item like astronomical object type for instance of (P31). TomT0m (talk)

• astronomical object (Q6999)
  • supercluster (Q27521)
  • galaxy cluster (Q204107)
  • quasar (Q83373)
  • gamma-ray burst (Q22247)
  • galaxy (Q318)
  • interstellar cloud (Q1054444)
    • nebula (Q42372)
      • reflection nebula (Q203958)
      • dark nebula (Q204194)
      • emission nebula (Q202265)
        • planetary nebula (Q13632)
        • supernova remnant (Q207436)
        • pulsar wind nebula (Q1810024)
        • H II region (Q11282)
  • star cluster (Q168845)
    • stellar association (Q736194)
    • open cluster (Q11387)
    • globular cluster (Q11276)
  • star system (Q595871)
  • star (Q523)
  • double star (Q13890)
  • binary star (Q50053)
  • triple star system (Q2088753)
  • multiple star (Q878367)
  • substellar object (Q3132741)
    • brown dwarf (Q101600)
    • rogue planet (Q167910)
  • planetary system (Q206717)
  • planet (Q634)
    • exoplanet (Q44559)
  • natural satellite (Q2537)
    • extrasolar moon (Q679411)
  • comet (Q3559)
  • minor planet (Q1022867)
    • dwarf planet (Q2199)
    • asteroid (Q3863)
    • trans-Neptunian object (Q6592)
    • meteoroid (Q7012)

Discussion

Nice! The two trees above are really in the same ontology -- the Wikidata ontology -- they are just different hierarchies. The part of (P361) hierarchy captures part-whole relations, and the subclass of (P279) hierarchy captures subsumption relations. We absolutely want both. The hierarchies above are a reasonable early iteration.

A note above the subclass hierarchy asks whether all subclasses of astronomical object need the claim 'instance of: astronomical object". For example, does planet (Q634) need to state both "subclass of planemo" and "instance of astronomical object"? I think the answer is "no". The claim "instance of astronomical object" should be applied only to particular astronomical objects, like Mars (Q111) or Chelyabinsk meteor (Q4661508). Applying "instance of astronomical object" to items like planet (Q634) would require awkward techniques for basic tasks like retrieving all things all astronomical object tokens, e.g. physical things beyond Earth that have a unique location in space and time. In other words, applying "instance of astronomical object" to things like "planet" would complicate queries to retrieve lists of particular things that could be, for example, visited by a space probe or observed with a telescope. Emw (talk) 19:23, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your comments Emw! I'm right with you to maintain both hierarchy ;-) . If I understood correctly, an item may not have P31 if there is P279 in a hierarchy, or is it better add as P31 another value as TomT0m suggested above? I have other two question to manage these hierarchies:

1. astronomical object is a case, but we will manage other kinds of hierarchies (books, geographic places, events, fictional characters...). We need a standard place to put and maintain them. Does we need to open a general discussion?
2. is it possible exclude some terms from constraints? For example, in general is too much generic define an object instance of (P31) -> nebula (Q42372), but it is better use the subclasses.

--Paperoastro (talk) 12:36, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

On point of your first question, an item can have P31 if it also has P279, but it's not clear to me what the best way we should go about doing such things. I think for now we should stay away from that unless there is an obvious instance of (P31) claim to make, such as at Udaloy-class destroyer (Q1052123), which uses already-natural language. --Izno (talk) 14:58, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Good job Paperoastro, took me a while to understand your second question, but I finally got it. I agree we should have a way to express that a class is a little generic and that we should use one of its subclasses. I see several ways to do this

• an analysis of the subclass tree which could warn than the class is not a leaf of the tree
• using a class of nebula types : mark the different nebula subclasses that are actually used as instance of (P31) <type of Nebula> nebula (Q42372), create a property type of to make a claim <type of Nebula> type of Udaloy-class destroyer (Q1052123) , then we can have a constraint or a gadget which suggest the more relevant subtypes that exist … TomT0m (talk) 16:46, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

@TomT0m: your first proposal is more general and "clean" than the second one, but I don't know if it technically feasible. The second is simple to manage, and we can use an item as <type of astronomical object> (as suggested by Izno) to "mark" the usable items of the whole hierarchy. If there is consensus about it, it could be the a good solution. --Paperoastro (talk) 13:52, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

As a point not part of the above, we should double check the two ontologies against each other e.g. what are the part of claims for each of those subclasses? Do those part of claims make sense? --Izno (talk) 16:07, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

@Izno: good observation! I'm uncertain to use the same number of items in both of hierarchies or not. For now in the "part of" hierarchy I didn't put subclasses items of a certain element (e.g. I don't put subclasses of interstellar cloud (Q1054444) or star cluster (Q168845)), because, for me, it is redundant, but I don't know if this solution is "ontologically" correct.

--Paperoastro (talk) 13:52, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

A possible instrument to monitor hierarchies

Waiting for queries, I made a script in LUA to monitor hierarchies; below there is an example using the hierarchy of astronomical objects made with part of. I hope it could be useful. --Paperoastro (talk) 23:07, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Item	Property	Expected value	Found value
supercluster	part of	Universe	[[galaxy filament]]
galaxy cluster	part of	supercluster	[[supercluster]]
quasar	part of	galaxy cluster	[[galaxy cluster]]
intergalactic star	part of	galaxy cluster	[[galaxy cluster]]
galaxy	part of	galaxy cluster	[[galaxy group or cluster]]
interstellar cloud	part of	galaxy	[[galaxy]]
star cluster	part of	galaxy	[[galaxy]]
substellar object	part of	galaxy	[[galaxy]]
star system	part of	galaxy	[[galaxy]]
star	part of	star system	[[star system]]
binary star	part of	star system	P361 does not found
triple star system	part of	star system	P361 does not found
multiple star	part of	star system	P361 does not found
planetary system	part of	star system	[[star system]]
planet	part of	planetary system	[[planetary system]]
natural satellite	part of	planet	[[planetary system]]
comet	part of	planetary system	[[planetary system]]
minor planet	part of	planetary system	[[planetary system]]

Hi, in the same spirit it occured to me that module:Trees code can with moderate rewrite and eytend tocheck if there is a loop if a part of or a subclbss hierarchy, any interest here ? TomT0m (talk) 08:01, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi, TomT0m, I gave a look to the module Tree and I saw that you used the second algorithm written here. If I understand correctly, you can use the first algorithm listed there, it is true?. --Paperoastro (talk) 12:55, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Paperoastro Hi, actually I used a variant of the second algorithm which instead of a list to store the order assigns a number to a node such that if a node would be before another in the list the number is greater (or shorter if I'm wrong /o\).

I could for sure have used the first algorithm, but the second is based on a depth-first search (Q816319) which can be used to detect loops as well (and I do here)

The things are a little bit complicated than that, as the algorithm I coded does several stuffs at the same time (and should be removed from the Tree module to be moved on a Graph one): It computes a spanning tree (Q831672) of the input graphs, which is shown with the tree templates, with annotated nodes to add the missing edges as HTML anchors and links, detects the links who makes the input graph either a tree (Q223655), a directed acyclic graph (Q1195339) if there is no loop but a node have several path from the root to him, or a directed graph (Q1137726). The order is used in order it ensures that if the HTML internal link is one that would make the spanning tree (Q831672) a general graph the link direction in the HTML page, the link should go up into the page, and if the link is one that would make the graph a directed acyclic graph (Q1195339) it should go down into the page (not sure that works though ...).

So actually this algorithm already detects loops, and DAGs if the graph is supposed to be a simple tree. I just have to add a DAG and a Graph template which respectively adds the categories if some DAG or a loop have been detected when the tree template have been called and so on. TomT0m (talk) 13:51, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi, TomT0m, I apologize to answer you only now. I read and re-read your comment above, but for me now it is too hard learning the logic of the trees! So, I'm sorry, I cannot help you. --Paperoastro (talk) 14:45, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

New subpage for ontologies

Hi, I have created a new subpage of the WikiProject Astronomy for managing the two ontologies with subclass of (P279) and part of (P361). At now I added the two radix items and one element: supercluster (Q27521). Some problems:

1. Is it correct the statement astronomical object (Q6999) <part of (P361)> astronomy (Q333) (a scientific branch)?
2. Has sense the statement astronomical object (Q6999) <part of (P361)> Universe (Q1)?

   Please discuss here.

3. supercluster (Q27521) and other objects have the statement subclass of (P279) -> gravitationally bound system (Q15053549). Is it useful in Wikidata this subclass? In my opinion it is better classify supercluster (Q27521) and other astronomical objects (see tree) directly as astronomical object (Q6999). In addition, also star (Q523), planet (Q634), asteroid (Q3863) are, by definition, gravitationally bound bodies. It can generate confusion...

--Paperoastro (talk) 22:45, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

⟨ astronomical object (Q6999) ⟩ part of (P361) ⟨ astronomy (Q333) ⟩

seems not correct. A science is a study and a collection of validates models and ideas, not an astronomical object. part of (P361) and

⟨ X ⟩ has part(s) (P527) ⟨ Y ⟩

are more easily usable for concrete objects, such as

⟨ door ⟩ part of (P361) ⟨ house ⟩

.

I think we can view a science as a class of knowledge, then we could have subclass of (P279), with a property study of (I proposed but was not accepted, I think), or subject of we could make the link beetween the science and the object it studies.

For the third point, I don't know, seems to not do harm, it is probably sourcable and an interesting fact. Could be a Wikipedia article (or a part of it) ^^ TomT0m ^(talk) 09:12, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, especially for the use of part of (P361). Concerning the third point, I prefer a "symmetric" hierarchy so I need an item for objects that are "not gravitationally bounded" or similar. --Paperoastro (talk) 20:38, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

At now (21 July 2014) the classification of astronomical object is more confused (see the tree) and it is made following different criterion: "type of objects" (i.e. stars, planets...), "gravity bounds" (i.e. gravitationally bound system), "wavelength" (i.e. astronomical radio sources, infrared sources, x-ray sources), evolutionary phases... In addition there are items that should not be in this classifications (e.g. part of HR diagrams, artificial satellites(!), lists). If there is no opposition, I will start to clean and simplify the classification. My idea is to use at the first step the "type of object" criterion (the more simple) and then we could decide how to proceed. --Paperoastro (talk) 20:52, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

A hierarchy for minor planet group (P196)

In the talk page of the property minor planet group (P196), I propose a hierarchy of the item involved. Please, comment and/or suggest modifications. --Paperoastro (talk) 21:54, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

A hierarchy for type of variable star (P881)

In the talk page of the property type of variable star (P881), I'm building a hierarchy for variable stars using the documentation of General Catalogue of Variable Stars (Q222662). Any kind of help and/or suggestion are welcomed. --Paperoastro (talk) 10:12, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Get rid of those horrid specialized typing properties :) Each time we create one, Reasonator has to add code I guess. For nearly no advantage. TomT0m (talk) 19:21, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

A replacement : put a

⟨ star class ⟩ instance of (P31) ⟨ variable star type ⟩

on the classes used in that hierarchy. TomT0m (talk) 19:24, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm following suggestions that Emw gave here in the discussion of the deletion of P132 (P132): with few "specialized" properties like P881, we can avoid multiple classification with P31. --Paperoastro (talk) 11:00, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

apparent magnitude (P1215) and filter

I have just created the property apparent magnitude (P1215), one of the most important for astronomical objects. Before to ask a bot to add apparent magnitudes, I'd like to create the qualifier wavelength band (here the proposal). I'd like suggestion to hierarchy. For example:

• UBV photometric system (Q129833) instance of (P31) -> photometric system (Q948944)

B band (Q6746395) subclass of (P279) -> UBV photometric system (Q129833)

could be correct? --Paperoastro (talk) 23:24, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

planetoid (Q398938)    / planetary-mass object (Q400144)   

Hi, may someone (like Paperoastro for example) help me sorting out the differences beetween these two items ? the language links seems almost complementary.

Is there a reson why they are not merged ? I wanted to sort things a little following a Wikidata game question about Mangwe Cavus (Q3844581)   , a formation (cavus (Q358877)   ) on Triton (Q3359)   , which lead me to claim that

⟨ cavus (Q358877)    ⟩ part of (P361) ⟨ planetoids / planemo / both ??? ⟩

. TomT0m ^(talk) 18:39, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi TomT0m, the nomenclature of sub-stellar objects is a little confusing. The two terms are not synonyms:

• planetary-mass object (Q400144) was proposed as definition for objects massive enough to be rounded by its own gravity and not massive enough to cause thermonuclear fusion; so this definition includes planets, dwarf planets, and "spherical" satellites. The terms was proposed in 2003 (at now I do not reach to find a source!), but it is not so used in literature (see this link). IMHO I would not use this definition.
• planetoid (Q398938) is an historical synonym of asteroids (so excludes planets and includes "not spherical bodies"): see the introduction of Minor planet (and reference therein).

For Triton (Q3359) and similar, I suggest natural satellite (Q2537). --Paperoastro (talk) 22:35, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Planemo seems a good and useful definition though, works for me. Do you think "Cavus" applies only for planemo or also for ateroids ? TomT0m ^(talk) 06:58, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

At now in literature "Cavus" is used only for some geological formation on Mars and Triton, so you can apply this only for planemo. --Paperoastro (talk) 10:15, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Conflicts between P60 and P31

SamoaBot has moved statements from the deprecated P60 to P31, but for 295 items there is some conflicts between statements already present in P31 and the ones in P60. Before to delete P60, we need to resolve them we need to copy the statement to P31 as is and, if we want, resolve the conflict. Follow the list.

--Paperoastro (talk) 11:48, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

That is not true. The claims can be copied to P31 and P60 can be deleted. The manual review is independent from that. Tamawashi (talk) 15:33, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

@Tamawashi: I modified the explanation following your suggestions. --Paperoastro (talk) 16:44, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

@Paperoastro: Grazie mille! Tamawashi (talk) 17:25, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

 Done --Paperoastro (talk) 16:32, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

apparent & absolute magnitude

We now have the property apparent magnitude (P1215) with dimensionless number as datatype, but the corresponding property 'absolute magnitude' is still pending, awaiting for number with dimension datatype. It's an aspect of how you look at it if magnitudes are an unit or an unitless number – but I think we should be consistent between both properties.

I suggest to also create absolute magnitude now, with dimensionless number as datatype. For the following reasons:

• apparent magnitude (P1215) is already widely in use
• It might take a long time until number with dimension is available
• Magnitudes can't be written as a product of potentials of SI-Units, thus it is unknown if Wikidata will support it and it is questionable if they are real units.

When it once is possible to use magnitudes as units, we can discuss this again and eventually migrate with using a bot. -- MichaelSchoenitzer (talk) 11:23, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

you are right: for the same arguments, apparent magnitude (P1215) was created. absolute magnitude (P1457) is here! --Paperoastro (talk) 19:34, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Launch of WikiProject Wikidata for research

Hi, this is to let you know that we've launched WikiProject Wikidata for research in order to stimulate a closer interaction between Wikidata and research, both on a technical and a community level. As a first activity, we are drafting a research proposal on the matter (cf. blog post). It would be great if you would see room for interaction! Thanks, --Daniel Mietchen (talk) 01:45, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Adding NASA Exoplanet Archive as a Reference to the Planetbox template

Hello everyone! My name is Marcy and I work for the NASA Exoplanet Archive. The archive offers a good amount of data on confirmed planets and we would like Wikipedia to link to us as a reference where appropriate, specifically in the Planetbox template. Currently there are links to SIMBAD and Exoplanets.eu in that template, but it's not clear how we can add ourselves (or through which channels we have to work through to be added). The Reference "data" link in the Planetbox template would go to the planet's Overview page in the Exoplanet Archive, which is a summarized compilation of the confirmed planet's aliases, planetary and stellar parameters, and links to published literature.

For example:

1. Go to the Wikipedia article for Kepler-22 b.

2. On the right side of the screen there is an infobox. At the bottom of the info box is the References section listing SIMBAD and the Exoplanets.EU, each with a link to the respective archive's data on that object.

3. We would like to add an entry for NASA Exoplanet Archive with the data link going to the archive's overview page; in this example it would be http://exoplanetarchive.ipac.caltech.edu/cgi-bin/DisplayOverview/nph-DisplayOverview?objname=Kepler-22+b.

Please let me know if you have any questions, and how we should proceed. Thank you!  – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mharbut (talk • contribs) at 20:08, 24 January 2015 (UTC).

Hi,

Do you still need help about this? J. N. Squire (talk) 14:28, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

P31 for Minor planets

Minor planets today often have the statement instance of (P31) asteroid (Q3863) no matter where in the solar system the minor planets can be found. That looks wrong to me, but what are we going to change them to? One alternative would be to change all P31 asteroid (Q3863) to minor planet (Q1022867), but I am not sure that would be a very stable solution with so many potential editors.

We have minor planet group (P196) to specify what groups they fit, and another property for families, so we do not have to be very specific. I suggest instance of (P31) distant minor planet (Q5282923) for all TNO, Centaurs and Neptune/Uranus Trojans (and Saturn Trojans if/when we ever find any). My main objection is that "distant minor planet" does not look very widely used. And I do not know if the Jupiter Trojans can be called distant or not. There will always be object which fits both as asteroids and as distant minors, like Hidalgo, but that problem will always be there somewhere, even if we use "minor planet" for all objects. -- Innocent bystander (talk) 08:50, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

You can use multiple instance of (P31) statements if you want. So if a particular object fits under two branches of the "astronomical object" class hierarchy, put it in two. (Mind you, my understanding of an asteroid is something a fair bit different from that of a minor planet, so it sounds more like there are a certain set of minor planets that either fit in both classifications, or fit in one or the other, and if they fit in one or other the statement in question should be refined/crosschecked with reliable sources.) --Izno (talk) 17:24, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

The statements are today mainly based on Wikipedia articles, or more accurately the botowners interpretations of the use of categories and templates in Wikipedia. I guess there can also be some inconsistencies between how the word "asteroid" and "minor planet" can be used in different languages. -- Innocent bystander (talk) 08:43, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Eclipses

Hi, I'm new to this. I was interested in adding data about solar and lunar eclipses. However it seems there are not many relevant data properties. My efforts so far can be seen at Q6312134. Any advice would be appreciated. I was dismayed that I couldn't even enter times properly ... ? Ideally all the information at en:List of 21st-century lunar eclipses would be present. Thanks MSGJ (talk) 14:49, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Did you check Wikidata:List of properties/Geographical_feature#Astronomy and Wikidata:List of properties/Generic for fit for use? Also, after checking, it might help if you could explicitly identify which of the table header items at the list you think should be added. Just from taking a look at your start, I might suggest that we need to look into explicit properties for those images. --Izno (talk) 17:49, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I did check all those, and no others seem to be applicable. Even the times have now been removed from Q6312134 so this looks like a non-starter at the moment. Shall I propose all the necessary properties? MSGJ (talk) 12:23, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Might as well. Did you check any of the others? (As a side note, total penumbral lunar eclipse (Q7828129) exists for marginally more detailed 'type' statement.) --Izno (talk) 02:29, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, I proposed them a week ago and not a single person has commented yet MSGJ (talk) 22:33, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

We move slowly here sometimes (too quickly in others). You can try pinging some of the same people as have already made a contribution to another proposal above. Alternatively, you might do some en:WP:canvassing on en.wp. --Izno (talk) 13:49, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Mapping of property based on list of observatory codes

In the past days I have been adding all observatory codes to Wikidata items. The usage of these codes is mapped on User:Romaine/Mapping/List of observatory codes based on the primary source of List Of Observatory Codes. This makes it possible to search easily for the item belonging to a code. Romaine (talk) 07:08, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

A related question is what we should do with the robot-discoverers? I have started to add missing discoverer or inventor (P61) to items related to these lists. Often the site of discovery also is the discoverer. Should we use the same item for the discoverer as for the observatory? In 1802 Zhang Heng (Q143987) Purple Mountain Observatory (Q714352) have been added to both P65 and P61, but I am not fully sure that is a good idea. Should we instead create a separate item for "the robot-observatory of Purple Mountain Observatory"? -- Innocent bystander (talk) 10:58, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Use of Unicode character (P487)

Hi,

On Wikidata:WikiProject Astronomy/Properties, Unicode character (P487) is listed to be add on astronomical objects which is a good idea but it doesn't seems to be the rightest way to me as it is redundant.

I suggest to use only notation (P913) to link an astronomical object to the item on its astronomical symbol (notation (P913) is already use but not documented on Wikidata:WikiProject Astronomy/Properties, is it on purpose or just neglected?) and to use Unicode character (P487) only on this item on its astronomical symbol.

Example: Mercury (Q308) -> notation (P913) = Mercury symbol (Q3594850) and Mercury symbol (Q3594850) -> Unicode character (P487) = "☿".

Doesn't it seems better to you? Can I remove Unicode character (P487) and replace it by notation (P913) on Wikidata:WikiProject Astronomy/Properties? (and add a note to explain that Unicode character (P487) can be use on the symbol item)

Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 17:25, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

• I believe your suggestion is a better way to handle this. Artem Korzhimanov (talk) 12:53, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

But I am not aware of that we have any items for the Vesta-symbol etc yet. -- Innocent bystander (talk) 14:02, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your answers Artem Korzhimanov and Innocent bystander.

Innocent bystander : 4 Vesta (Q3030) symbol has no item right now but I think there is no problem to create this item (and since this symbol has an history and multiple variations, a article on Wikipedia could be useful too).

Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 09:55, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

As far as I know, the number of asteroids with own "symbols" is limited and only a few of them have a Unicode-version of the file. So it is fully possible to do even with a limited effort. -- Innocent bystander (talk) 10:01, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes it is. Besides asteroids, there is planets and the 12/13 zodiacal constellations but it's still a limited number of items (30 at the most). Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 10:23, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

FYI, 1. I removed Unicode character (P487) from planets and constellations. I'll deal with the minor bodies later. 2. I change the documentation consequently : Special:Diff/247277729. Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 13:59, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

An other related question : should astronomic symbol image (P367) (created in 2013 but currently unused) goes on the object or on the symbol? The constraint says on the object but to be logical with this proposal, I think it should go on the symbol. Ping @Paperoastro, Ricordisamoa: for comments. Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 07:56, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

P367 has mediafile as type. Well, it looks like it is used to me. It is probably possible to migrate this to the symbol-item, and maybe even replace it with P18? If I remember correctly Moon (Q405) was once flooded with files. It is maybe better to create one item for each phase (full, new, etc)? -- Innocent bystander (talk) 08:26, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Innocent bystander :ooups, sorry! I looked at Special:WhatLinksHere/Property talk:P367 instead of Special:WhatLinksHere/Property:P367…

Using astronomic symbol image on an astronomic symbol may be a bit redundant and indeed maybe we should delete delete this property and use P18 on astronomic symbol instead.

Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 08:00, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

P367 was meant for astronomical objects at the time, but its use cases may have changed meanwhile, or it may have become completely useless. For what it's worth, I believe Commons files should be linked to Wikidata items, not vice versa. --Ricordisamoa 08:44, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

@Ricordisamoa: It looks like that "Commons files should be linked to Wikidata items" will not happen, since the file-namespace will not be included into Wikidata. Maybe other solutions comes with new technology, but that is to far far away to be seen today. On the other hand, there are discussions that P18 normally only should have one statement per item. The idea behind that thought is difficult to accomplish with the "Commons files should be linked to Wikidata items"-solution. -- Innocent bystander (talk) 16:14, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

@Innocent bystander: Sorry for being unclear, I meant: "Commons files should state which item(s) they depict, Wikidata items shouldn't care about which file(s) they're depicted by". --Ricordisamoa 16:39, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

That was exactly how I read you! :) Not a bad idea, but it is a little to far far away today. -- Innocent bystander (talk) 16:49, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

When structured datas for commons will be up this wont be a problem. Amyway a few images for an item should not harm, after all how it lioks likr is a property of the entity. Not very structured, but ... author  TomT0m / talk page 16:46, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Celestial coordinates

Hello,
Here is a reminder of my recent question elsewhere left unanswered about this matter. I wanted to introduce the celestial coordinates of Hubble Deep field (Q741255) as you show the geoloc of a city or place on earth. This property seems not to exist ( ? ) I trust it would be much more accurate (scientific) than using a (property)-constellation. Is this the right place where I should ask  ? Thanks in advance. Cordialement, et Hop ! Kikuyu3 (talk) 17:43, 6 August 2015 (UTC) PS : I will copy this request on Wikidata:Property proposal/Natural science, too.

@Kikuyu3: Probably something dumb as I don't know the field, but would Universe (Q1) would work as a reference "globe" ? author  TomT0m / talk page 17:49, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

No, but a good idea. --Izno (talk) 21:22, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

We can't do this yet because we don't have the number with units property type available quite yet. It's coming very soon! --Izno (talk) 21:22, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Quantity properties

A lot of new quantity properties need attention and inclusion on this Wikiproject Page. Please also check on Wikiproject Physics and Chemistry for properties that are useful to both projects. orbital inclination (P2045), M sin i (P2051) and luminosity (P2060) were recently created. --Tobias1984 (talk) 11:57, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Since we do not have a solution to the epoch-problem yet, many proposed properties are still stalled. -- Innocent bystander (talk) 13:02, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

• One more: radius (P2120) --Tobias1984 (talk) 15:20, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
• One more: focal length (P2151) --Tobias1984 (talk) 13:08, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
• apoapsis (P2243) --Tobias1984 (talk) 11:42, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
• periapsis (P2244) --Tobias1984 (talk) 20:46, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
• argument of periapsis (P2248) --Tobias1984 (talk) 19:45, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Automatic lists

I am sure most people have already heard, but the automatic lists are so much fun: Wikidata:WikiProject Astronomy/List of planets --Tobias1984 (talk) 09:15, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikimania 2016

Only this week left for comments: Wikidata:Wikimania 2016 (Thank you for translating this message). --Tobias1984 (talk) 11:59, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

transit of...

I've been trying to clean up and bring some consistency to "transit of..."

• astronomical transit (Q6888)
  • Transit of Mercury (Q247899)
    • transit of Mercury, 2016 (Q21522690)
  • transit of Venus (Q185203)
    • transit of Venus, 1639 (Q3537644)
    • Transit of Venus, 1769
      • 1769 Transit of Venus observed from Tahiti (Q4553059) (proper name/title)
    • transit of Venus, 1874 (Q3537642)
      • 1874 Transit of Venus Expedition to Campbell Island (Q4555461) (proper name/title)
      • 1874 Transit of Venus Expedition to Hawaii (Q4555462) (proper name/title)
      • Passage de Venus (Q20992221) (proper name/title)
    • transit of Venus, 1882 (Q3537646)
    • transit of Venus, 2004 (Q1148320)
    • transit of Venus, 2012 (Q1201935)
    • transit of Venus, 2117 (Q4382104)

I would suggest that some of these be renamed to either "Transit of PLANET, YYYY" or "transit of PLANET, YYYY" without the day and month. Some, like 2012, span across midnight and include 2 days. There is only one event per year, so the date should be included as a point in time (P585) , but not in the label. I've ignored the "transit of Planet1 from Planet2" as many of those are not even notable enough to exist. Thoughts? --Mu301 (talk) 20:09, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Gas Giant page translated into portuguese-br

Hello, I made an exact translation (to Portuguese-BR) of an article that I believe belongs to WikiProject Astronomy named: "Gas Giant" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_giant). On this page there is a reference to a link (on languages) to Portuguese, however is not the exact translation, but another article regarding the same subject, with much less information and totally absent of references and/or citations. Would you guys could upload this page on Wikipedia and create some sort of related link from one page to another.

tks.

D marcal (talk) 02:47, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Moved from the main page of the project. Feldo (talk) 13:05, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Coordinate systrem

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T136841

Just for info: we have open a ticket on phabricator about the coordinate system. Gazetteer of Planetary Nomenclature use a lot of different coordiante system but in Wikidata isn't possible use different system. --ValterVB (talk) 10:32, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Property for NAIF ID

Please consider supporting Wikidata:Property proposal/NAIF ID. Thanks.--Anders Feder (talk) 17:56, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Items without statements related to this WikiProject

Arlo Barnes Athulvis Buller1 cdo256 Cekli829 Harlock81 Jc3s5h JenlovesbigD J. N. Squire Jura1 Kepler-1229b LiMr Manlleus Meodudlye, with only limited amount of time to spend in the foreseable future. Mike Peel mu301 (mikeu) Paperoastro Path slopu Ptolusque Romuald 2 Sarilho1 Sherman Alexander Shisma Simon Villeneuve SM5POR Tom.Reding VIGNERON Wallacegromit1 - generally like to add ground and space observatory instrument data Ysogo Jck1337

Notified participants of WikiProject Astronomy

Wikidata:Database reports/items without claims categories/ptwiki includes a few categories that might interest you. The list includes PetScan links to add statements easily. --- Jura 10:00, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

So far I did mainly:

• pt:Category:Cubewanos 789 Category:Classical Kuiper belt objects (Q7216567)
• pt:Category:Plutinos 185 Category:Plutinos (Q7138869)

They all seem to have several sitelinks. --- Jura 16:04, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

More:

• es:Category:Estrellas variables 161 Category:Variable stars (Q7207591) from Wikidata:Database reports/items without claims categories/eswiki

Also with several sitelinks.
--- Jura 22:17, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

• eo:Category:Asteroidoj de la ĉefa zono 1087 Category:Main-belt asteroids (Q3919730) from Wikidata:Database reports/items without claims categories/eowiki
  --- Jura 09:52, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

• es:Category:Asteroides del cinturón principal 928 articles Category:Main-belt asteroids (Q3919730) from Wikidata:Database reports/items without claims categories/eswiki

I added instance of (P31)={asteroid (Q3863)
--- Jura 17:09, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Small visualisation tool

Arlo Barnes Athulvis Buller1 cdo256 Cekli829 Harlock81 Jc3s5h JenlovesbigD J. N. Squire Jura1 Kepler-1229b LiMr Manlleus Meodudlye, with only limited amount of time to spend in the foreseable future. Mike Peel mu301 (mikeu) Paperoastro Path slopu Ptolusque Romuald 2 Sarilho1 Sherman Alexander Shisma Simon Villeneuve SM5POR Tom.Reding VIGNERON Wallacegromit1 - generally like to add ground and space observatory instrument data Ysogo Jck1337

Notified participants of WikiProject Astronomy

Hi,

I made a small tools for visualisation places on an astronomical body named after a place on planet Earth : here places on Venus. It uses the named after (P138) property. It's my first tool on tools.wmflabs.org, feel free to comment and give suggestion.

Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 18:15, 23 January 2017 (UTC) Thanks, VIGNERON!--Manlleus (talk) 19:40, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Constellation abbreviations

How should IAU standard abbreviations be added to constellations? A short, unscientific sampling of constellation (Q8928) instances suggests that they aren't included yet, and I can't find any already-existing property that would fit. (The one candidate I came up with is short name (P1813), but that wants a language, which doesn't seem suitable for a standardised abbreviation. Other standardised abbreviations have their own properties, like element symbol (P246) and ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 code (P297).) -- Perey (talk) 16:27, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Planetariums

In preparation for the upcoming International Day of Planetaria (Q11783808) on March 12, I noticed that very few planetariums have been tagged as such (currently 62), and some of these items are missing some basic information, e.g. 7 don't have a coordinate location (P625) statement.

I checked out the "Planetarium finder" page of the International Planetarium Society (Q3799676), which gives four options:

• their own "Directory of the World's Planetariums" — a set of 8 PDFs last updated in 2012
• a planetariums database run by Association of French-language planetariums (Q2867581) that has a bit over a thousand entries, but does not seem to offer a way for programmatic access
• the page List of planetariums on the English Wikipedia
• a paywalled compendium of "planetarium and digital dome theaters" (of which they are counting over 4000)

None of these are structured formats, so I was wondering whether any of you have any thoughts on how best to go about improving coverage of planetariums. --Daniel Mietchen (talk) 01:33, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Was Pluto a planet or not?

Arlo Barnes Athulvis Buller1 cdo256 Cekli829 Harlock81 Jc3s5h JenlovesbigD J. N. Squire Jura1 Kepler-1229b LiMr Manlleus Meodudlye, with only limited amount of time to spend in the foreseable future. Mike Peel mu301 (mikeu) Paperoastro Path slopu Ptolusque Romuald 2 Sarilho1 Sherman Alexander Shisma Simon Villeneuve SM5POR Tom.Reding VIGNERON Wallacegromit1 - generally like to add ground and space observatory instrument data Ysogo Jck1337

Notified participants of WikiProject Astronomy

Hi,

22merlin removed the claim:

⟨ Pluto (Q339)    ⟩ instance of (P31) ⟨ planet (Q634)    ⟩
end time (P582) ⟨ +2006-09-13T00:00:00Z ⟩

I reverted the removal and asked for explanation and 22merlin answered:

Hi. I don't think it's right to say that because of change in definition Pluto stopped beeing a planet. According to IAU Pluto was never a planet and it probably never will be. We can write that planet ceased to be one after some cosmic collision with another body, not by change in our semantics.

It seems strange and anachronistic to me but I can understand the logic (indeed Pluto didn't change in 2006, just the status some people give it). What do you think?

Cdlt VIGNERON (talk) 17:55, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Oh God, this is quite a philosophical question. I understand 22merlin reasoning, but the good thing with Wikidata is that it has no actual correct value. I probably wouldn't add the claim because that would be confusing (like saying the Sun orbited the Earth until 16th century), but if someone adds it with an appropriate qualifier, it technically would respect Wikidata policy. My suggestion is that, if you really want to add it, get a strong reference and unequivocal qualifier that would state that that date when the IAU revoked the classification. - Sarilho1 (talk) 18:49, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Yet philosophicaly, it was not the status of Pluto to change in 2006, but the accepted meaning of the world "planet" changed. What "planet" meant before 2006 is not what "planet" means today. Hence to be 100% correct we should say that Mercury (and the other 7) are istances of both "planet-as-meant-before-2006" and "planet-as-meant-after-2006", instead Pluto is istance of both "planet-as-meant-before-2006" and "dwarf-planet". In other words: we should use P582 (end date) if the object is really changing status (e.g. we should use it for comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 that impacted Jupiter) but use some some different Pxxx to date the change of the meaning of the qualifier.--Ysogo (talk) 21:09, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the item planet should only have one meaning, and if we need a second meaning then create a variant of "planet" or of "planet of the solar system". I don't like making it look like something about pluto itself changed. Or what about something in the Pluto item like "said to be the same as" ("values as qualifiers") "instance of" "planet of the solar system", "end time" "13 September 2006" DavRosen (talk) 21:39, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

We already have several items : planet (Q634), inner and outer planets (Q17362350), terrestrial planet (Q128207), exoplanet (Q44559) and so on (there is 40 items with subclass of (P279) = planet (Q634)), we can create a new item(s) « planet : planet after IAU 2006 definition » (and before too ?) but I'm not sure if it really solve the question. Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 09:03, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

If we are going to date stamp Pluto's shift in categorization there should be consistency. Are we also going to note the change in status for Ceres, Pallas, and other 19th century planets or that the Sun and Moon were considered planets during the Greco-Roman era? What date would you assign the Sun's change in classification from a planet to a star?[1] See the list at w:Planet#Objects_formerly_considered_planets. To me this seems like calling air (Q7391292) an instance of chemical element (Q11344) until it became a chemical substance (Q79529). My preference would be to call it what it is categorized as now, without a date. --Mu301 (talk) 04:55, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm wondering if maybe we should have a "time of deprecation" property, similar to reason for deprecated rank (P2241). On the other hand, there have been some concerns over P2241 itself and the data model already... Still, I disagree with using start/end date to indicate the time at which the understanding changed, as opposed to an actual change in the subject itself. --Yair rand (talk) 19:05, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

planet (Q634), Pluto (Q339) are homonym (Q160843). Homonyms lead to paradoxes (=chaos). These homonyms are now used in different models (Pluto (Q339), for example, in "model until 2006" and "IAU model after 2006"). Only refinement of the term avoids the paradox. For example, as suggested by VIGNERON: planet after IAU 2006 definition. Then we have 2 item: 1) "before IAU 2006 planet" and 2) "IAU 2006 planet". For example, "before IAU 2006 Pluto" -> "before IAU 2006 planet", "IAU 2006 Pluto" -> "IAU 2006 planet". No paradoxes, no chaos, only order, really structured data (having transitivity). --Fractaler (talk) 08:55, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

A possible new personal ID

Hi! I have found almost 3 or 4 new possible properties for scientists and I need to propose them. So, do you mind if I ask you some questions about one of them as an example. User:Epìdosis gave me some advice but he is not 100% into that so before proposing something, I need to fully understand the procedure. I might discover new possible IDs in this area, so let's go step by step.

I am here because my first question is about this one, the individual membership ID of the IAU. Astronomers have usually constantly updated and serious databases in my experience (I am not an astronomer), so this is something reliable, am I right? The other minor databases I have discovered maybe are not so reliable, but this one is more convincing. There is no Wikidata property in Q6867. So it is possible this one is missing, I have also checked many astronomers items, it never appears. And this is an "Authority control" I suppose. Am I right so far? Any other advice before I ask for his creation?

I link from Wikidata talk:Property proposal/Authority control too.

Let me know.--Alexmar983 (talk) 09:10, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

It should be fairly reliable, although looking at it I need to update my record. ;-) One thing to note is that deceased astronomers don't seem to have IDs (e.g. search for Richard Davis (Q24084691)), so I'm not sure how stable IDs are in the long term. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 13:18, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

these astronomical things are usually not bad... plus even if they will never insert older names, it looks like something they will take care like the database of other things they own. In that case it was much better than other profiles I have found around, in case of similar names of different fields (there is a botanist called Giuseppe Bono), it helps a lot to pinpoint a profile. What is shown are the data at the moment of registration, and they should take care to update them or to encourage their members to keep them updated, but the identification is unique, and that is the core aspect right? I am going for a business trip, but at the end of the next week if nobody had opposed I will propose the new property.--Alexmar983 (talk) 13:40, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Arlo Barnes Athulvis Buller1 cdo256 Cekli829 Harlock81 Jc3s5h JenlovesbigD J. N. Squire Jura1 Kepler-1229b LiMr Manlleus Meodudlye, with only limited amount of time to spend in the foreseable future. Mike Peel mu301 (mikeu) Paperoastro Path slopu Ptolusque Romuald 2 Sarilho1 Sherman Alexander Shisma Simon Villeneuve SM5POR Tom.Reding VIGNERON Wallacegromit1 - generally like to add ground and space observatory instrument data Ysogo Jck1337

Notified participants of WikiProject Astronomy should I propose it Wikidata:Property_proposal/Person#Identifiers? is it ok for you all? Thank you.--Alexmar983 (talk) 03:19, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

It seems ok to me. In the end, it's always the same question : could it fit into a more general property or do we need a specific one. Here I don't see what other property could be use.

A point is bugging me thought, « Any members remaining Inactive for more than 10 years will be removed from the IAU lists. » these ID seems definitely not perennial.

Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 09:07, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

you are right. But in the end they are not bad ID especially to discriminate amongst different people with similar name. I will propose the ID property and at the same time I'll ask some friends in the IAU to think about that!--Alexmar983 (talk) 10:31, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

and also, no ID is perennial in any case... institutions merge or decade, countries and their archives might disappear... I can double check if they are not reused that would be annoying!--Alexmar983 (talk) 10:34, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Alexmar983 Indeed it's not a bad ID and in the absolute no ID is perfectly perennial. But some databases are more perennial than others ; a good practice is to keep the old ID forever and to never delete them (but you can hide the content and replace it but a warning, unactive indivual in this case for example) and indeed, unicity is another important point to check. Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 15:21, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

I have started a very long list of "to dos" to crate the property, it takes some times. Even understanding the datatype is less easy the first time. But I have no hurry.--Alexmar983 (talk) 03:14, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Wikidata property related to astronomy (Q41799791)

Hello, I have just created Wikidata property related to astronomy (Q41799791) because I was looking for Wikidata property for items about astronomical objects (Q21451142). So maybe both elements are doublon but I prefer to keep it for now just in case it could be useful since it is more generic than Wikidata property for items about astronomical objects (Q21451142). Any opinion on this? Pamputt (talk) 17:05, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

it include the IDs of astoromers... and also maybe those related to some space programs plus the codes of the observatories... It should be used on its own.--Alexmar983 (talk) 03:16, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

UM 160 (Q1168590)

Could someone check the last edits made from IP: [2]? I don't know if this is correct or not, WP articles indicate that deleted data was correct, but that's not my field of specialty. Thanks, Wostr (talk) 18:04, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Scholarly articles or proceedings?

FYI I left a comment regarding the Proceedings of the International Astronomical Union and their definition on wikidata item when imported.--Alexmar983 (talk) 01:00, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Wikidata:Property proposal/solar eclipse type

Hello! I want to create the property of solar eclipse type. This property need to classify the every solar eclipse (Q3887) as total, partial, annular of hybrid. I need your support. --Brateevsky (talk) 12:47, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

A possible Science/STEM User Group

There's a discussion about a possible User Group for STEM over at Meta:Talk:STEM_Wiki_User_Group. The idea would be to help coordinate, collaborate and network cross-subject, cross-wiki and cross-language to share experience and resources that may be valuable to the relevant wikiprojects. Current discussion includes preferred scope and structure. T.Shafee(evo&evo) (talk) 02:36, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Definition of parent and child?

Arlo Barnes Athulvis Buller1 cdo256 Cekli829 Harlock81 Jc3s5h JenlovesbigD J. N. Squire Jura1 Kepler-1229b LiMr Manlleus Meodudlye, with only limited amount of time to spend in the foreseable future. Mike Peel mu301 (mikeu) Paperoastro Path slopu Ptolusque Romuald 2 Sarilho1 Sherman Alexander Shisma Simon Villeneuve SM5POR Tom.Reding VIGNERON Wallacegromit1 - generally like to add ground and space observatory instrument data Ysogo Jck1337

Notified participants of WikiProject Astronomy: Is there a proper definition of parent astronomical body (P397)?

I've seen some things I thought to be inconsistency in astronomy (use of) ontology. Please pick up discussion or action if you think it's relevant here and here.

I also noticed artificial satellite (Q26540) appointed "child of planet": Q634#P398. Is it meant to be a "superclass" of all "planet children"? I doesn't look like "artificial satellite" is an astronomical object at all, to me? Meant to be satellite (Q1297322)? Why isn't Q634#P397 star (Q523) rather than star system (Q595871)? -- Jagulin (talk) 09:16, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@Jagulin: In French, parent astronomical body (P397) can be translated as "orbits around". Maybe the designation in English could be changed for something more accurate, but I'll let other contributors give their opinion on it before making such a change.

It's clear that other anomalies should be fixed. I don't know if such ontology was discussed before. J. N. Squire (talk) 12:04, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@J. N. Squire: Thanks for added insights. Since any WD "concept" should be universal (no pun intended) I didn't even consider that there were translations based on other interpretations. Let's say an item A is marked parent astronomical body (P397) → B. Item A has property "parent body" B sounds like the opposite of A has property "orbits around" B. Right? What do child astronomical body (P398) say? Are these the original translations or changed later based on discussions?

I think "parent and child" sounds like hierarchy descriptions that could be easily explained. Rather than change tag, I think "description" should be clarified some. Even better if there also is a way to describe the item in statements. Perhaps there is a similar "thing" in "standard astronomy classification" and an ID to link to. Or a property description "as in defined by XYZ"? One idea is machine knowledge, after all.

I noticed "Documentation" has another "description" than what the item currently have. Is it hardcoded somewhere or taken from suggestion archive? I would think it to be strange to have item information that is not available in the statement structure ("original description" or similar items could be write protected). The archive does however have interesting info to use in a better definition. "Parent body is also used in meteoritics for the planet/planetesimal from which a meteorite originated" sounds quite ok. I think meteorites are short lived. Applying the same "originating from" structure to comets or other things seems less clear. In that case I would expect "parent" to be the main body of the oribit gravity. For gravity description there also seems to be things like Earth-Moon system (Q18589965). Jagulin (talk) 10:14, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

coordinate locations other than Earth

Hi all. I'd be interested in getting feedback about splitting off a subproperty of coordinate location (P625) that applies to non-Earth bodies. For example, most lunar crater (Q1348589) such as Cajal (Q422139) have coordinate location (P625) set without a qualifier, so most mapping queries interpret it as an earth-bound coord. To get rid of these, the query would need to filter against located on astronomical body (P376). But I think most are unlikely to think of this, and it is an unneccessary hassle anyway. Are there reasons not to migrate non-Earth coordinates to another property? --99of9 (talk) 07:55, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm not an expert, but saw your question. Can you give an example of the "most mapping queries" that are failing? If I click the coordinate at Cajal (Q422139), it opens moon view. This seems to be due to a "globe parameter" in the coordinate itself, but confusingly enough it can't be set in the UI nor is it visible. Only a few are listed in the query[3] to detect incorrect globe, but I don't know how accurate the query is (found it in documentation, on the talk page of coordinate location (P625)) and if it's a bot will close these soon. There's another discussion that I don't understand. For enWp the en:Template:Coord#globe:G may be working. I'm not sure why qualifiers are not used instead.

The suggestion to make another Property is ok in a way, but I guess there will then be problems where the wrong property was chosen, or both used. wgs84 and gps coordinate are alias for coordinate location (P625), which I suppose only make sense for Earth. Apart from that, my feeling is that the current system has been in use for a long time and there are probably implications to change it. It is a good idea to have located on astronomical body (P376) set, so getting the visualizer you use to adapt to that format should be the way forward. Coordinate system in itself are not as well defined as it may seem, when it comes to non-Earth especially (e.g. Mars). 243 Ida (Q149012) doesn't look much lika a sphere so coordinate of Vienna Regio (Q25909121) may be very strange. Jagulin (talk) 03:18, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

@99of9: you are making a mistake, the datatype globe-coordinate has inside itself a parameter to indicate the globe concerned (by default it's Earth but it can be anything). Adding a qualifier would be redundant and creating thousands of property for each body doesn't seems a good idea either. And same as Jagulin, can you give an example of the "most mapping queries" that are failing? Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 11:40, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: When you say "redundant" it's still a question of "which to remove". Qualifiers are a well established mechanism of WD. The "secret parameter" is not. But, assuming that we stick to the "parameter": Can you clarify the best way to fill it in? Thanks, Jagulin (talk) 16:40, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

@Jagulin: except that the not-so-secret-documented-everywhere parameter can't be removed, it *always* has a value. You can fill it with most tools or directly with the API (personally, I often use Wikidata CLI). Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 17:39, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

@VIGNERON: I didn't mean to argue so no need to defend your position. Coming from the web ui I however think that the parameter is severely unintuitive and hidden, which is why I'm asking for better instructions until it can be improved. Even though I provided some documentation hints above, I can't find a the WD-framed documentation. Can you help point at the relevant documentation and, if not included there already, per your suggestion perhaps an example how to set this from CLI? Cheers, Jagulin (talk) 10:05, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

A bot sets the globe on P625 when one uses P376. Still, I think the general idea is worth pursuing. --- Jura 10:27, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

@Jagulin: my position is just "please know what you're talking about", I don't really care if you create hundred of thousands of subproperties of coordinate location (P625) but if it's done, it should be for the right reasons. For the documentation, you can start with Help:Data_type#globe-coordinate, Property:P625, Property talk:P625 (and other properties with the same datatype, see Category:Properties with globe-coordinate-datatype), you can also use the search engin to find the very many discussions on this subject. For « allow to select globe in the UI » there is phab:T56097 (open since 2013). For CLI, this page give an explicit example on how to « set a coordinate on another celestial body than Earth ». Looking for documentation, I also discovered User:Molarus/globe.js, it's a bit crude but this gadget works, I just corrected the globe on Vienna Regio (Q25909121). finally, the parameter is not totally hidden, if the globe is Earth there is a map of Earth, if not, there is no map ; and if you click the link, you can see which globe it is in geohack ; it's certainly not perfect but it's not totally hidden either, and subproperty won't really change that, the parameter will be as "hidden" as before. Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 10:50, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I've now updated documentation as explained in Property talk. As I wrote in my first post to this thread, I did a search and found some of this information, but it was quite difficult to piece it together and to know which of the several-years-old talks that were well informed and if they were still the consensus today. Getting confirmation here helped a lot and I hope the documentation can be kept up to date and referred to in the future.

@VIGNERON: Thanks for your assistance, I now think I made documentation clear enough by itself. I don't understand the "please know what you're talking about" statement. Asking for feedback should in my book always be welcome. When the same proposal pops up again and again, there's probably something to improve. Updating the documentation to share "what everyone should know" allows everyone to take part in the discussions on similar terms and the main misunderstandings to be sorted out effectively. As for the benefit of the globe-parmeter, the only argument I've seen is "that's how we've always done it", which I think is not a well-found argument seeing how poorly implemented the support is. I've seen phab:T56097 and it's difficult for me to understand why there's no progress on it. One interpretation is that the data-type is to be abandoned, but I've seen no such indications either. I'll adopt to the documented way of working and see if I have the possibility to improve the UI too eventually. Jagulin (talk) 10:08, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

• @Jagulin, 99of9: To sort this out, please see the proposal at Wikidata:Property proposal/planetary coordinates. Please help complete it. --- Jura 09:59, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

• Sorry for going missing in action in this discussion. Regarding "many queries failing": I raised the problem when I ran a query which just asked to plot a bunch of coordinate location (P625) on a map. I don't remember what other criteria I had, but was surprised to find one in the middle of nowhere, and it turned out to be a lunar crater. I expect that like me, others are not all being specific about which globe they want when they query. Does the WDQS default to only return Earth? --99of9 (talk) 10:24, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
  • @99of9: The globe is only present in the detailed node, so, to be sure, one can't rely on wdt:P625 only. --- Jura 10:31, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
  • @99of9: Actually, the globe is present on query service with wdt:P625 if it isn't Earth (Q2) and queries wont display non-Earth coordinates on the maps there. [4] --- Jura 09:49, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
    • Hmm, I'm not sure what happened then. Maybe the crater was set incorrectly at the time. Or maybe I was just getting a list of items to set their country in bulk. It's been too long since it happened, sorry. --99of9 (talk) 12:18, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
      • @99of9: I'm not quite sure if that always worked that way. Occasionally, some mapping features break because of the assumption that only Earth coordinates are in P625. For your case, maybe Special:Contributions/LocatorBot didn't set the globe yet, or skipped it for some reason. There are few places not on Earth where the globe isn't set e.g. Aellopus Saxum (Q89208827). --- Jura 19:54, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Mapping of GCVS variability types to corresponding wikidata items

I believe these are existing star variability types in wikidata. Can someone help me with mapping of them to [5] like I did for BY Draconis variable (Q797219)catalog code (P528)BYcatalog (P972)General Catalogue of Variable Stars (Q222662)? --Ghuron (talk) 13:33, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Old name of stars

Arlo Barnes Athulvis Buller1 cdo256 Cekli829 Harlock81 Jc3s5h JenlovesbigD J. N. Squire Jura1 Kepler-1229b LiMr Manlleus Meodudlye, with only limited amount of time to spend in the foreseable future. Mike Peel mu301 (mikeu) Paperoastro Path slopu Ptolusque Romuald 2 Sarilho1 Sherman Alexander Shisma Simon Villeneuve SM5POR Tom.Reding VIGNERON Wallacegromit1 - generally like to add ground and space observatory instrument data Ysogo Jck1337

Notified participants of WikiProject Astronomy

Ghuron spotted a problem with 15 Cancri (Q27638501). This star name doesn't exist anymore but it did exist in the Bayer designation (Q105616) (you can see it here) under this name until it was renamed as 15 Cancri (Q4029002) (confirmed by the footnote ‡ of page 402 in An account of John Flamsteed the first royal astronomer which says: « 15 Cancri [our 15 Cancri (Q4029002)], which is called ψ by Flamsteed, is ψ Geminorum [our 15 Cancri (Q27638501)] »).

So what should we do: keep the duplicate (like we do for some vernacular name of species) or merge?

Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 11:46, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I'd say merge, in which case the different name is kept as an alias rather than a separate item. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 11:51, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Mike Peel. Old star catalogs never go away; even observations in ancient Babylon and China are used to investigate long-term changes in the sky. Since the old catalogs never go away, neither do the old names. Jc3s5h (talk) 12:19, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

@Mike Peel, Jc3s5h: ok, so if there is no objection, I'll merge and update the related constraints to accept the merge. Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 14:01, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Sounds good. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 17:43, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

@Mike Peel, Jc3s5h:  Done and I added it as an exception on constellation (P59) (the only constraint needing updating). Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 15:10, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Two QIDs, Same Article

I tried to merge the following as the appear to be the same article. Note the DOI. My reason for not merging is that the authors are not listed the same in the same serial order. Check serial ordinal 1017. One article has A. Vecchio, G. Vedovato.

• Multi-messenger Observations of a Binary Neutron Star Merger (Q42126267)
• Multi-messenger Observations of a Binary Neutron Star Merger (Q66470289)

My experience is the author list often gets duplicated in a merge. I am not excited about cleaning up list like this. Thoughts? Trilotat (talk) 00:03, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Merged. Probably DOI casing problem was introduced by my, I'll think what I can do to fix it Ghuron (talk) 03:33, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Candidates for new properties

Star age

Arlo Barnes Athulvis Buller1 cdo256 Cekli829 Harlock81 Jc3s5h JenlovesbigD J. N. Squire Jura1 Kepler-1229b LiMr Manlleus Meodudlye, with only limited amount of time to spend in the foreseable future. Mike Peel mu301 (mikeu) Paperoastro Path slopu Ptolusque Romuald 2 Sarilho1 Sherman Alexander Shisma Simon Villeneuve SM5POR Tom.Reding VIGNERON Wallacegromit1 - generally like to add ground and space observatory instrument data Ysogo Jck1337

Notified participants of WikiProject Astronomy: Is there agreed way how we can capture star age? --Ghuron (talk) 07:28, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

@Ghuron: not about the age but the "birth", I see that some stars have a inception (P571) (6 results right now https://w.wiki/Bcp, including our Sun (Q525), added by @HapHaxion:) and some have a start time (P580) (7 results right now https://w.wiki/Bcr).

We should decide for one property and document it on Wikidata:WikiProject Astronomy/Properties (where there is nothing about age for now).

Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 07:48, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I've seen that sometimes P571 is used, but it is not very convenient (especially in infobox integration) and it is not possible to capture +/- error there.

Wikidata:WikiProject Astronomy/Properties seems to be outdated, at least parallax (P2214), P2215 (P2215), radial velocity (P2216), metallicity (P2227), distance from Earth (P2583), angular diameter (P5348), right ascension (P6257), declination (P6258), epoch (P6259), effective temperature (P6879), surface gravity (P7015) are missing there Ghuron (talk) 07:59, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

@Ghuron: well, the problem is the not limited to P571, P580 and all property with the date datatype are in the same situation. Do you mean that you want a quantity datatype? Then you should ask for the creation of a new property (which has never been proposed apparently, except for Wikidata:Property proposal/age but it's a different situation).

Congrats, you are now responsible for updating the documentation More seriously, indeed *we* should update this doc.

Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 12:19, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

If no one object it here, I will create corresponding property proposal in a week Ghuron (talk) 12:24, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

I agree with you, we should have something about star age. Romuald 2 (talk) 14:13, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Wikidata:Property proposal/stellar age Ghuron (talk) 13:16, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Here we go: age estimated by a dating method (P7584) Ghuron (talk) 10:44, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Star variability

For CS Virginis (Q6819200) we know that Vmax=5.84; Vmin=5.93, period=9.2954 days and some other information (which I don't understand). Is there a way to express it using existing properties/qualifiers? Note that visual magnitude 5.885±0.045 is not ideal, because we cannot interpret whenever it is ±error or ±variability. Ideally we need one statement per each figure with "quantity" datatype --Ghuron (talk) 07:03, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Hello,

I don't think there is any way to express that for now, but maybe I'm wrong. We could create two new Wikidata qualifier (Q15720608) for that, one for Vmin and one for Vmax, that we could include under apparent magnitude (Q124313) (assuming that the value "5.885±0.045 " in app. mag. is a mean one).

Note that SIMBAD, for some reasons, uses a very old version of the General Catalogue of Variable Stars (Q222662) (1971!). For example, the most recent version of the catalogue indicates a minimum magnitude of 5.95 (not 5.93) for this star (CS Vir). So I'm not sure that importing this very old data from SIMBAD would be a good idea, but if you could do that directly from the most recent version of the catalogue, that would be awesome. Romuald 2 (talk) 16:18, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for noting that. "The plan" is to have basic data (including catalog identifiers) imported from simbad and then enrich it using vizer/cds from the most recent/accurate sources Ghuron (talk) 18:38, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Oooh, I'm looking forward to it. Romuald 2 (talk) 22:47, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

It looks like we can agree at least astronomical filter (P1227)V-max (Q76596417) and astronomical filter (P1227)V-min (Q76596947) (see CS Virginis (Q6819200) as an example)? May be we can also use event interval (P2257) for variability period? --Ghuron (talk)

Seems good for me. Romuald 2 (talk) 02:38, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Double/multiple star component designation

I am assuming that we want to have an item for double/multiple star system (e.g. Kappa Volantis (Q74808579)) that uses has part(s) (P527) to list items for each component (let's ignore instance of (P31)spectroscopic binary (Q1993624) for a moment). Is there an agreed way to specify which of those items is component A, B, C, etc? This would make infobox rendering of such objects much easier. Maybe we can use series ordinal (P1545) qualifier (technically it is a string)? Ghuron (talk) 12:45, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support. Although the label of series ordinal (P1545) looks as if it is necessary a number, it is a string and its documentation says "Can be used for any logical series; values can include e.g. 6; 3.5; 1b; 3–6; C4". Maybe it should be renamed, but it looks ok for the purpose. Wikisaurus (talk) 17:42, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
• Yes, that's a good idea. I've also noticed that lot a of stars are optical doubles, but not binary (physically associated) stars, but they are listed nevertheless as "binary stars" on Wikidata, because I'm assuming the double star identifier on SIMBAD (**) has been interpreted as "binary" and not "double or multiple" as it is (= not necessarily "binary") (e.g. Alpha Lacertae (Q128470)). Maybe if you can change that, and keep binary for the stars that are also spectroscopic binary (Q1993624), or eclipsing binary star (Q1457376), or rotating ellipsoidal variable (Q1332364), or cataclysmic variable star (Q1059564), or RS Canum Venaticorum variable (Q1392913)... (and all other binary-related variable stars), that would be perfect. Romuald 2 (talk) 17:22, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
  • @Romuald 2: Thanks for catching this. I indeed interpret ** as binary star (Q50053). What item do you suggest to use instead? Ghuron (talk) 18:26, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
    • I suggest using double star (Q13890) (because it does not makes a supposition on the physical link or not), even if the "or multiple" part is missing here. Romuald 2 (talk) 18:29, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
      • Going forward will use double star (Q13890). It will take some time to fix already imported values Ghuron (talk) 05:31, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
        • I've cleaned most of the issues and would like to clean the remaining pieces once I'll fix most of the double stars hierarchy (definitely one of the darkest corner of simbad). In the meantime, I have a question regarding elements of orbit for star systems. How do we capture it? For instance, for ADS 7251 (Q4139718) we know that orbital eccentricity (P1096)0,28. Should we capture at on the ADS 7251 (Q4139718) level or specify for both HD 79210 (Q20669478) and HD 79211 (Q20669492)? Ghuron (talk) 08:31, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
          • That's a tough one. I think it's better to capture on the ADS 7251 (Q4139718) level (because it's the page of the entire system) but for systems when there is a primary star that's really dominating in terms of mass, maybe it's more appropriate to capture the elements on the secondary componant, because effectively it appears to be orbiting the primary one. I'm not sure.. Romuald 2 (talk) 16:17, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

            • 

              There are much more complex systems out there... Ghuron (talk) 12:03, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

"Presumed"

From now, I would like to use sourcing circumstances (P1480)presumably (Q18122778) when I encounter objects with uncertain binarity or variability type. See for example Psi2 Piscium (Q5177185) (binarity tagged as "uncertain" ("2?") in A catalogue of multiplicity among bright stellar systems (Q14558831)) and Iota Tucanae (Q3304103) (variability type tagged as "uncertain" in the General Catalogue of Variable Stars (Q222662) ("SRD:", note the ":"). What do you think? Romuald 2 (talk) 01:01, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Sounds good to me Ghuron (talk) 06:01, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

New Proper names for exoplanets and stars

Arlo Barnes Athulvis Buller1 cdo256 Cekli829 Harlock81 Jc3s5h JenlovesbigD J. N. Squire Jura1 Kepler-1229b LiMr Manlleus Meodudlye, with only limited amount of time to spend in the foreseable future. Mike Peel mu301 (mikeu) Paperoastro Path slopu Ptolusque Romuald 2 Sarilho1 Sherman Alexander Shisma Simon Villeneuve SM5POR Tom.Reding VIGNERON Wallacegromit1 - generally like to add ground and space observatory instrument data Ysogo Jck1337

Notified participants of WikiProject Astronomy

The IAU approved 113 new proper names for exoplanets and 113 names for stars. The official list can be found here or on nameexoworlds.iau.org can we add all this new data as a collective effort? I propose to associate the entities with their new names in this spreadsheet and then add them with quickstatemens. any better ideas?--Shisma (talk) 16:59, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

It seems like a good idea and the right thing to do.--Manlleus (talk) 22:04, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

@Manlleus: Great work! so much for the collective effort 😅. So how would you model this? I drafted up a new statement for Franz. What do you think? We'd need the language code for each name--Shisma (talk) 10:06, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

I'd suggest to use named after (P138) as a statement for the object itself, not a qualifier for "name" Ghuron (talk) 13:53, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

@Manlleus: I generated statements on the second sheet, if you think they are fine you can just run them or feel free to do changes. Btw: thank you: I didn't know there is a & operator. Up until today I used the CONCATINATE() function to do the same 😂 --Shisma (talk) 20:07, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Why not adding the new names, but please not use them as the main labels; most of them will be certainly forgotten in some weeks (who really use the names that were given for some stars and some planets in the previous NameExoWorlds editions?). Romuald 2 (talk) 14:30, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

I already added them as the primary label and i think its the right thing todo. otherwise they will be certainly forgotten in some weeks 😉 --Shisma (talk) 17:23, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

No, I think we should stick for the name that's mainly or at least present in the (scientific or in popular science (Q995600)) litterature atm. Which means we need to wait before eventually adding them as the main labels. Romuald 2 (talk) 21:00, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

What is an asteroid?

Look at talk:Q3863. I’m no expert, but trans-Neptunian objects are not usually classified as asteroids. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 17:39, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

astronomical object (Q6999) count by instance of (P31)-value

At Wikidata:WikiProject Astronomy/numbers/count by P31 --- Jura 13:02, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

exocomets

right now solar comets and comets in general seem to be conflated. While obviously most observations of comets currently knowable to Wikidata are around Sol, they do exist elsewhere and should presumably be considered separately (with child classes 'comets orbiting the Sun' and 'comets orbiting a star other than the Sun', or alternatively the name of this section for the second). I would be bold and try to model this, but thought I would defer to those with better astronomical / astrophysical knowledge & experience. Arlo Barnes (talk) 00:14, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Non-existing exoplanet

There is SIMBAD entry for exoplanet ε And b, which refers to On the origin of massive eccentric planets (Q68822300) article. This article indeed mention planet that rotates around Epsilon Andromedae (Q536806). It implicitly assumes that it was discovered ~1996 by Geoffrey Marcy (Q736811) and R. Paul Butler (Q1387698), so it looks like it mistakes ε And and υ And (see Upsilon Andromedae b (Q1072024)). So I decided to add SIMBAD ID (P3083) * eps And b to Upsilon Andromedae b (Q1072024) as deprecated rank Ghuron (talk) 15:31, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Photons and high gravitational objects

If photons a particles then that means they is some objects or fields that react to them if we can find them then when could ride them Masibulele Mmango (talk) 14:49, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Photons and high gravitational objects

If photons a particles then that means they is some objects or fields that react to them if we can find them then when could ride them Masibulele Mmango (talk) 14:50, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Gaia EDR3 identifiers

Access to Gaia EDR3 is available. Apparently we can do this, but according to [6] "With each new data release, the source list is becoming progressively more stable and from Gaia DR2 to Gaia EDR3 changes impact less than 5% of the sources". May be there is a better way to capture EDR3 identifiers? Ghuron (talk) 17:00, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Ok, in order to minimize both amount of changes and item size, if DR2 ID = EDR3 ID, I'd suggest to do this. If IDs are different, we need to create separate statement for EDR3 Ghuron (talk) 05:23, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Lexeme Challange №10 – Astronomical objects

Arlo Barnes Athulvis Buller1 cdo256 Cekli829 Harlock81 Jc3s5h JenlovesbigD J. N. Squire Jura1 Kepler-1229b LiMr Manlleus Meodudlye, with only limited amount of time to spend in the foreseable future. Mike Peel mu301 (mikeu) Paperoastro Path slopu Ptolusque Romuald 2 Sarilho1 Sherman Alexander Shisma Simon Villeneuve SM5POR Tom.Reding VIGNERON Wallacegromit1 - generally like to add ground and space observatory instrument data Ysogo Jck1337

Notified participants of WikiProject Astronomy

Hi, this weeks lexeme challange is about Astronomical objects. Please consider contribute missing lexemes or improve existing ones (i.e. add usage example (P5831) or IPA transcription (P898)) 😬 --Loominade (talk) 16:05, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

New exoplanets database

This useable/scrape-able? https://exo.mast.stsci.edu Outermayo (talk) 19:37, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Redshift problems

Hi,

I've discussed some problems about redshift (P1090) values with Ghuron. It appeared that he had accidently created thousands of bad redshift values when he imported data from SIMBAD (Q654724) about 2 years ago.
For now, there's a lot of problems in the home country of this contributor and he's not in the mood to do the corrections. For me, I can't do the job all alone. I expose here some insight on how to identify the problem :

• Exception of cosmic microwave background (Q15605), every values over ~13 are falses.
• Every values under -0.01 are falses
• A lot of values between -0.01 and 13 are falses too. We can track (some of?) them by querying the values sourced with sources like The catalogue of radial velocity standard stars for Gaia (Q56561456) and A redshift survey of nearby galaxy groups: the shape of the mass density profile (Q66470446), but I'm pretty sure that we are not getting all of them like this.

So, I don't really know what to do to clean this. Any suggestions ? Simon Villeneuve (talk) 13:21, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I've done what I can. Simon Villeneuve (talk) 13:37, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Wolf catalog fr ro

can anyone confirm if Catalogue of High Proper Motion Stars (Q2941622) and Catalogue of High Proper Motion Stars (Q97135197) are the same thing --Loominade (talk) 08:55, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

@Simon Villeneuve, Romuald 2, J. N. Squire, VIGNERON: since you speak french 🙂 --Loominade (talk) 10:59, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it seem to be the same catalog. --Simon Villeneuve (talk) 11:07, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

+1. Romuald 2 (talk) 12:16, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

thanks merged! --Shisma (talk) 15:52, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Q110852539

Moved from Wikidata:Administrators'_noticeboard#Q110852539

Hi, Q110852539 should be linked to WPen:597148 Chungmingshan instead of WPen:597148 Chungmingshen: the name “Chungmingshen”, initially given in WGSBN Bull. 2, #2, p. 10 (2022-02-07), was corrected into “Chungmingshan” in WGSBN Bull. 2, #3, p. 4 (2022-02-28). Thank you in avance for the correction. SenseiAC (talk) 22:24, 2 September 2022 (UTC)